God vs. doctor: 1 in 2 say prayer saves the dying

Dawn,

As a Psychologist I can assure you that faith can help. I am not saying God can heal, but that faith in a future can help.

tell that to my wife who can now eat milk products without getting sick for the first time in several years. Yes, it was because of prayer. Also, tell to my mother in law who was in the hospital after a stroke. She could not respond at all until after prayer, she came home in 3 days just fine. Also, tell that to the person in Peru that was blind in one eye, but after prayer she could see instantly. God is real, the bible is true and Jesus did die for you too.

Her body overcame the allergy. Happens all the time.

I think we have more influence over energy than we once imagined. Thomas Edison performed numerous experiments studying the energy of the personality, aka the mind. Energy cannot be created or destroyed (um, unless it becomes matter), it simply changes form. The chaos theory is an example of energy on one side of the planet affecting the energy on the other. When enough people focus energy on the same person (prayer?), could it be possible for that to have an impact on that person? I think so. In my beliefs--sort of a Quantum Physics view--energy and matter are interchangeable, simply put. All matter in the universe came from one common place, pre-Big Bang. It is said in the science world that all this "stuff" is connected, atomically (or sub-atomically), and each particle influences every other particle, connecting everything, alive or not. This, to me, is your "god." And this has great power. If we could all just see how connected we really are . . . perhaps there would be more healing.

The seven year cycle changes everyones body and reactions every so often (not always exactly 7 years).

For several years I had been getting sick every time some coughed at work, now I am back to being healthy for much longer periods of time. All without praying to any god.

Faith is great for those who need to Follow someone or something. Me, I like to lead and don't really care about others opinions of HOW I do whatever I feel like doing (when I want to do it)! That gets me in trouble quite often with poeple of faith, to be sure.

"tell that to my wife who can now eat milk products without getting sick for the first time in several years. Yes, it was because of prayer"

firefly, i hope you were kidding. i really do. are you in fact so arrogent that you truly think that instead of stoping the halocast or giving food to africans,he decided to let your wife drink milk? how arrogent. (african prayer) "god, will you please help our starving village?"
(god) "no kid, i just can't go around helping anyone who needs me. the human race would just become too dependant on me. now if you excuse me, i have to help this mans wife so she can drink milk again"
"WHAT?"

haha firefly never said anything about my comment. i would say maybe he just knows i'm right, but that would be kind of arrogent. firefly, is there anything you have to say about that?

not sure what bad experiences you have had but obviously you have been misled somewhere along the way. I have seen many people healed. I have also seen many peoples lives changed after coming to know Jesus. I know two people that were into satanism until they met Jesus. Don't worry, he does love you and is just waiting for you to 'sincerely' ask him to reveal himself to you.

For me faith in the Creator is personal. Yes I would pray if I was at the bedside of a loved one; pray that the doctors do their best; pray that my loved one has the inner will to fight and live. Sure I'd also pray for a miracle; but I'd also know when to pull the plug.

I love God; I do not like religions.

If we all felt this way we would all be better off.

So if I pray to Jesus, I'm good, Right? My prayers will be answered? What if some one is Buddhist? Or Muslim? Or Jewish? Or in your mind, does only prayers to Jesus count?

"God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible is a collection of honorable but still primitive legends....."
Albert Einstein

PS: My God can beat the crap out of your God.

Albert Einstein was also quoted as saying "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Wade, I could not agree with you more. Belief in a god provides those humans with a sense of hope because they are not strong enough beings to find hope in their own selves and mankind; therefore, this false sense of hope gives the illusions of miracles. Imagine how much more time people could have when they realize that individuals have the power themselves to overcome a great deal of adversity instead of praying for mystical powers to make everything perfect; however, we must also differentiate and accept the times when nothing can be done. Christianity used to be a major part of my life, but when I denounced god and took responsibility for all aspects of my life, life has consequently became much better!

On a side note, can any person with a belief in god tell me how if god is the ultimate symbol of love and is omniscient, then how can god create some humans that he/she knows are ultimately destined for hell? It seems pretty fishy to me. . . .

So if I pray to Jesus, I'm good, Right? My prayers will be answered? What if some one is Buddhist? Or Muslim? Or Jewish? Or in your mind, does only prayers to Jesus count?

To whom are you addressing this? I'm sure it can't be me (although your post appears just below mine), because I never said a word about Jesus.

My beliefs concern the Creator, the Almighty, and are not Christ-ian.

wadetbailey: "How do you people still believe that there is a "god" that will step in and save a life? Such an ego driven and archaic way of thinking. Do you still believe that Santa Claus will bring you gifts if you are good? Why does he "choose" to save some and not others then? A don't tell me he has a plan for these people. "

Call me a Christian nut... I really don't care. I don't need your opinion to validate my beliefs. But I will answer your question, since you asked... :)

1st: Believing that there is a God is not ego driven at all... Quite the contrary actually. Belief in God is an act of humbleness by accepting the fact that there is something "higher" than you. (and please don't give me any sarcastic responses about how birds, clouds, and airplanes are higher than us... you know what I mean) :o) Actually, by believing that there is no God, and you don't need anything "higher" would qualify as "ego driven" in my opinion.

As to why God chooses to save some, and not others... That is something you will have to ask Him when you pass. I am not God... no one else on this forum is God. And by claiming that we should know why he chooses some and not others, or that there is a formula as to why he does it, is a claim that we know as much as God. That puts us on the same level as Him, which we could never be.

This may not matter to you Wade, but I will pray for you that God reveals Himself to you in a way that you know He is who He is. :o)

Cholla,

First of all unless you live under a rock Clinical Psychology is not "vodoo nonsense". All I am saying is don't take away a persons hope that may be all they have. Even a person like you could help if you had the heart to try.

RyRy -- You're exactly right.

If Jesus died for our sins, why are we still suffering?

If god is "all powerful and ever loving", either he chooses to let people suffer (in which he is not ever-loving but instead is evil) or he can't do anything to prevent their suffering (in which he is not all powerful).

If god is the creator of all things, he must have created the capacity for people to be evil -- why would he have done that? He commanded us not to kill each other but he's not chosen to do anything about it. What possible good for mankind is it for god to allow deranged gunmen to go on shooting rampages at schools or universities?

If god is "all knowing", he must have known that the Internet was going to be created -- why wouldn't he have chosen that as a way to communicate with people instead of having his "commandments" written on stone tablets?

It's mind boggling to me how people can continue to waste so much time believing in the "god" mythology. Most people stopped believing in other mythological creatures (such as Zeus and Centaurs) long ago...

ezeques, i agree. dropping religion has made me a leader, not a follower.i shall become the jesus of atheism!

ok, lets face it: this is getting too ridiculous. if u religious people will just admit one thing, just one, then admit this. no matter what happens in the world, you could say god did it. he was saved. god saved him! he died. god decided it was his time. some random thing happened to him. it was part of god's plan! personally, i dont beleive in miracles, and i believe anyone who does doesnt know the other side of the story. this is so annoying! people who are rich and stupid and ignorant say the world is a good place and god cares for all and whenever they cant explain something they say god did it.

too late, I've already been saved by Jesus

too late, I've already been saved by Jesus

You've been saved by Jesus too late? That sucks...

No, actually he said too late, I've already been saved by Jesus not your misinterpretation You've been saved by Jesus too late

I think those who've been "saved by Jesus" have really been saved by themselves, but don't know who to give the credit to. Again, it's mind over matter. If you think you need a buddy, aka Jesus, Mohammed, Fred, or Suzy to use as a crutch to stay on the right track, by all means, use it. I'm certainly not against it. Whatever it takes!

Who says?

If you've been saved by Jesus too late then you haven't been saved.

"DoomsDayNo actually he said too late, I've already been saved by Jesus not your misinterpretation You've been saved by Jesus too late"

Can someone buy this guy a sarcasm detector?

It's not too late for you....God loves you although you don't accept him, there is only one God and I pray you will find it in your heart to learn more about him. He can do amazing things for you heart, mind, and soul. May God Bless You!

You're right--accept Cthulhu or be totally @!$%#ed when he comes back from the deep.

"It's not too late for you....God loves you although you don't accept him, there is only one God and I pray you will find it in your heart to learn more about him. He can do amazing things for you heart, mind, and soul. May God Bless You! "

i dont want god! i am a big boy, i dont need his help! i am happy wothout him! never look over my shoulder when i think i sinned, and when i do something for someone else, i do it because it helps them, not because it will get me into heaven!

"Should you pray to God that this patient's blood pressure will return to normal levels? Or do you rely on the surgeon and the anesthesiologist to find out why the BP is dropping and possibly stop the internal bleeding?"

You do both. Pray for the patient and for the doctors. I'm sure more than one doctor is doing some praying in a crisis situation, even if it is only in the background.

Good answer!

Hey, whatever floats your boat and gets you to concentrate on the situation at hand. I'd just be there for the surgery, though, no prayers please.

absolutely right, im glad thats your opinion. ive heard enough of the opposite lately.

I would rather have God at my side then ANY doctor in the world.

If I'm ever found lying on the side of the road with a life threatening injury, I hope it is not you that finds me.

Me: "Help! call 911. Call an ambulance!"

You: Aw, honey, we don't need no stinking doctors. Here, darlin, I'll pray for you"

Me: Are you nuts!? arrrrgh! *goes into shock and dies*

Ha! I would rather have God by my side, too! But it ain't gonna happen.

So your god has a plan for us huh? A divine plan that god created a long time ago and put into practice?

Suppose you come along and pray for something that's not in his plan. What's he supposed to do, change his plan? Just for you? It's a divine plan. What the point of being god if anyone with a $2 prayer book can come along and mess up your plan?

So if god has a plan and he's gonna do what he wants anyway, what's the point of praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me.

Or take the other option...there is no god. Yup...prayer is still pointless!

You do not know why god "chooses" to one person over another to "come to him" but somehow you "know" he has a plan for us? How? The bible? You feel it or believe it? Has he told you this? Really want to understand how you become so knowing and know he has a plan? None of what I mentioned above is examples of knowledge, so how do you know he has a plan?

How do you know that he doesn't?

Doverite, yours is the most sensible - and sensitive - comment I've read here thus far. You have a realistic perspective which still acknowledges that faith has a role, but life is, by its very nature, a terminal condition.

Thanks!

Just because you're praying doesn't mean you should stop seeking out every available treatment and God-given solution out there.

Agreed, well stated. I think that happens when people become too religious. .

That dead person is just fine. Their dead!

I just love this quote...gonna be stealing it. Sorry!

Just because you're praying doesn't mean you should stop seeking out every available treatment and God-given solution out there.

Divine healing is alive and well but I think Creator gave everyone enough sense to seek medical attention if they need it. That's when He can do His best work. Let the medical community tell you there is no hope then let Him prove them wrong!

(sigh) sgt. ironhorse, i have to tell you that one of the most frustrating thing for me is when christians blame whatever they can't understand on god. how could the universe have existed forever? i dunno... god did it!!! how did she get better? she had cancer and now shes fine.... i dunno... god did it!!! well ur a total dooshe and u cant understand how something happened so u say some mythical being did it when ur too lazy to understand the truth. they used to say the universe revolved around earth, that was a quote from your so called god. its pretty conveniant that the bibles changed now that was proven and we still think theyve been right about everything all along

When it is your turn to meet God you will then see what a "shame" he is. And I pray for you.
God bless you.

pray to YOUR god to help you

It's not his God actually, it's billions of people's God

Wadetbailey - if you say you'll rob a bank and blame God, that is a misinterpretation. God does have a plan for you, but if you CHOOSE to rob a bank that's on you. If you took the time to read and ask the right questions, you would understand that that when Adam sinned, God gave man the ability to make his own decisions. God wants you to love Him, but doesn't want to MAKE you love Him. It's your choice, but God wants all His creation to love him, because He loves you enough to LET YOU CHOOSE!

I think that we need to have a good handle on who God really is to answer this question. Undoubtably, everyone here has put God in a box. Firstly, God wants EVERYONE to be saved (not just spiritually, but physically in some situations, which is the ultimate goal, and im not slinging that term around, I have actually seen lives seriously change, not some preachy fake religion, but serious change) Our fate eternally is not set until death, even though God FOREKNEW who would choose him. Ergo, our deaths are the end of our road. Second, who says we have to live past 20, or some random age? Who gives the age at which death is a tragedy versus mercy? We hear of a 10 year old dying, and think "Awww, poor thing" (as do i, i do feel sad for the child) but when an 80 year old dies, its like "well, shes lived a long life, she will be alright". Is either absolute? Our time of death is purely our own personal time, as our time of birth is. So, when someone dies, its not that God has no mercy for them, its simply thier time. Everyone has to die. And someone who has a near death expierience is only to their benefit. My assitant manager told us this story about his father. A few years ago, he died by some reason. I can't remember why, maybe a stroke or heart attack, one of those. He was pronounced dead, and was dead for about 45 mins. All of a sudden, as his family was saying goodbye, he awoke. And for those who do not know, after about 5 mins w/o air to the brain, the brain is seriously damaged. But he had no damage, nothing. Before he had this expierience, he was angry and had issues w/ these things all his life. His son said that he came out a different man. He was the most humble and thankful man from the time he reawoke to the time he finally died for real. I can't remember if prayer was apart of this, he's an orthodox christian, so possibly. But the point is that these miracles are not random, they happen to change lives. We can pray for healing, but God is in control of everything. We say it's either faith or science. But we regretably don't see that they are both submissive to God. God developed the human body, and developed prayer. Ergo, he's Lord of both. When we say, "we have to pray", or "we have to go to the doctors", not both, we're not being wise at all. The faith is going to do nothing if all physical means have not been done (all miracles that are not personally done by jesus, who was also a physical healer, is usually done some other way). And w/o faith, how would u ever trust the doctors who are performing on the patient? One cannot exist w/o the other. Prayer is not about presenting requests before God as if we don't ask, he will never give. Its a measure of faith and submission to God's will. God's heart is to give generously w/o fault, for thats his nature. But as sin is in this world, so is death and the consequences. Would u blame the police officer for arresting you if he caught u robbing a bank? How then should we blame God for our consequences. Instead of blaming him for being absent of a miracle for some, thank him for the miracle that you are still alive to live another day. And btw, what is an empty life w/ no hope or faith anyway? What do you have to look forward to? What do you ahve to live for? The next promotion, the next car, the bigger house, the next girlfriend or boyfriend? WHat do these things accomplish w/o God? Not much. We're still left empty by the end of the night.

My whole point is don't blame god for something he didn't cause, and failed to prevent... He has his own will, and as Romans asks, "who are you to question God?"

<3 Christine

But does giving us an alleged 'choice' constitute love, since it is traditionally described as what amounts to a 'Hobson's choice?'

That is, if I say "Your money or your life!" I am theoretically giving you a 'choice,' but functionally you know it's not a true choice; either you give me the money (your only viable option) or I kill you.

If you're drafted, and there's no C.O. option, you can choose between going into the service or going to prison. Again, the 'choice' really isn't; it's a grim ultimatum disguised as a choice.

If a divinity says, "Do things my way or I will destroy you (or torture you forever; or torture you for a few centuries and THEN destroy you)," it is again a grim ultimatum and not a true 'choice' where you get to decide what you really want to do.

Being omniscient and knowing scores of people would, through critical thought, independence, ignorance or cultural upbringing, choose what is termed 'the path of destruction,' runs afoul of the concept of omnibenevolence.

It would have been properly benevolent to either create humans who would be perfectly obedient, humans with true free will (no grim utimatums to fret and debate over, coupled with cosmic silence to exacerbate matters), or to not create them at all.

I, as a mere man, would not subject others to such a grim ultimatum, especially if they had little or no way of confirming that I had made such an ultimatum, that the ultimatum had teeth, or that I even existed and was not an urban legend.

If God is infinitely loving and just, beyond man's flimsy capacity for compassion and fairness, the grim ultimatum doesn't fit.

Beautiful....exactly what I was thinking. Thank you for addressing the 500 elephant!

"who are you to question God?" a mortal human being, and if god had any sence in him he wouldn't mind being questioned. learning, listening, reading, and questioning has never hurt anyone, it has only made people smarter. however, that is somewhat the point of the quote, because then as we question and learn and grow smarter, we become better and better at seeing through lies and religion (which is self delusion). i shall openly question gods ways as much as i please, and it will only make the both of us smarter.

i say, who is god to deny us the right to question him?

that was very well said bro

"And btw, what is an empty life w/ no hope or faith anyway? What do you have to look forward to? What do you ahve to live for? The next promotion, the next car, the bigger house, the next girlfriend or boyfriend? WHat do these things accomplish w/o God? Not much. We're still left empty by the end of the night."

wow. i hate christians like this (fortunately not ALL of them are but there are some ignorent people like you) who think that life is empty without religion. it is in fact better without religion! you just havent seen what it is like to be an atheist. do you really just see your life as a preperation for heaven? we have just as much too look forword to, the only difference is that we know that when we die we die for good, so we live this life as much as we can. what do i have to look forword to? as i have said before, love laughter
friends
relationships
music
nature
and all those things dont need any god.
like i have said before, (and you may quote me)
i hope you find the truth before you waste this life preparing for the next!
please conquer your ignorent veiw of atheists

"When it is your turn to meet God you will then see what a "shame" he is. And I pray for you.
God bless you."

kodak, we are debating whether or not god exists, we are not shouting out are beliefs. the difference is that with debating you are using proof or at least evidence of you being right. oh, wait, you have none.

To acknowledge your, our, need for him. Every man, person, being, desires to be and feel needed and wanted.

God is no different, he desires us to want and need him.

God does answer prayers it may not always go our way ,but when it does it builds our faith.Its called intercession.Read the word.It has all the answers.Every question you ask look for yourself its in there I guarantee you.I used to ask the same stuff. God Bless!

god's so perfect yet he needs us to need him? Desire is just a lesser form of lust, which is recognized as a sin. I've read the bible many times...all it amounts to is a collected work of stories designed to give moral guidance. Much like Aesop's fables and every folk story passed down generations. I respect a person's faith...if god helps you succeed in life and fills a void to make you stronger...good on ya. I personally don't need that type of self-delusion

Also as Omnipresent and All Knowing...praying really means jack....God already knows what you want and will want in the future. If God exists he is the cruelest mass murderer of all time, especially knowing the hurt he has/is/and will inflict on his creations and happily pushing on with it. All is god's plan...in that case you have no right to ever in any way feel sad or angry. If a burglar kills your child you must shrug it off, its gods plan...the burglar was his messenger. Sit down and have a cup of joe with him.

The bible creats nothing but hypocrisy

l

I understand where you are coming from in your email but some things need to be cleared up, and hopefully my analogy will do just that.

You state, "god's so perfect yet he needs us to need him" If you yourself have children, then you know that you don't need them to need you, and obviously you don't want then to desire or lust after you, but you do (hopefully) gain a sense of fulfillment when they do love you, when they come to you for counsel and guidence, when they share their hurts as well as their gains.

You already know what your children want (usually pretty much everything) but you also know:

a.) what they NEED
b.) that giving the child everything they want is never the right answer

You also state, "he is the cruelest mass murderer of all time" becuase of the tragedy that has befallen the earth.

Who hasn't thought their children believe them to be just that after dolling out a punishment...I'm sure after a pop on the butt my son has, inside, said he's hated me, just as I did when my Dad did the same. But as we mature and grow, we understand our childish ways, our parents punishments, and look back with better clarity and understanding.

That said, I've come to grips that we will never be able to get those that don't believe to suddenly find faith, it's a tough pill to swallow as it requires changing your roll from a leader to a follower, a nucleus to a surrounding proton.

We're not talking about a 'pop on the butt'; we're traditionally talking about either total destruction, eternal torture, or torture followed by destruction.

I know of few truly loving parents who would want to kill or torture their children, no matter what they did. Omnibenevolence implies compassion beyond even the most loving parent.

Your analogy neither helped nor made sense. God destroying entire civilizations is nothing like a "pop on the butt"

In my comments I never refered to the children lusting after god....it was god lusting after attention from his children.

And to liken god to petty parenting just cheapens him and shows your weakness in faith, which makes your arguments for god void.

god gives man free will, and using my free will I choose not to believe as there is not enough evidence for me and god sends me to hell right? well if god gives us the greatest gift and then punishes us for using it...he seems like a petty and shallow god. If you're right then i'll happily spend eternity down below with the angel responsible for giving mankind intelligence

Please don't talk like that.

You are right God does not need us; however he does desire to have a relationship with us, his creation. It does not have anything to do with "lust" it has to do with a genuine desire to have a true "friendship."

Now day's friendship is a thing of the past, especially with the opposite sex because lust has corrupted that bond. People are engaging in sexual encounters like dogs and other animals do, without knowing one another, without loving each other, and without allow a bond to develop before moving into love making, but the animals are doing it for procreation, people are doing it out of perverted lust; not good.

I am a nice looking woman and could have had sex many, many times but choose not to. Why, because I want one thing sacred between me and my beloved, for him to know that I thought enough of our relationship to keep myself from lust and not let it corrupt our trust in that regard. And it has not been easy, I am a person that likes sex and lots of it but I value fidelity and feel that it is my way of showing the man that I love that no temptation will deter me from being faithful to him....so he can be assured of one thing, that I will never break his heart by cheating on him.

Trust me, God must have given me the ability to continually resist the temptation because I would never be able to do that on my own. What am I saying, God does exist and you will know it when he works in areas of your life that you know it could not come from yourself.

god gives man free will, and using my free will I choose not to believe as there is not enough evidence for me and god sends me to hell right? well if god gives us the greatest gift and then punishes us for using it...he seems like a petty and shallow god. If you're right then i'll happily spend eternity down below with the angel responsible for giving mankind intelligence

This is the shortest phrasing of the reasoning that I've been trying to write out myself.

"That said, I've come to grips that we will never be able to get those that don't believe to suddenly find faith, it's a tough pill to swallow as it requires changing your roll from a leader to a follower, a nucleus to a surrounding proton."

yes, a leader to a follower, someone with education to someone religious, someone intelligent to someone ignorent.

well that was a little insulting and insensitive, but you get my point.

"If you yourself have children, then you know that you don't need them to need you, and obviously you don't want then to desire or lust after you, but you do (hopefully) gain a sense of fulfillment when they do love you, when they come to you for counsel and guidence, when they share their hurts as well as their gains.

You already know what your children want (usually pretty much everything) but you also know:

a.) what they NEED
b.) that giving the child everything they want is never the right answer

You also state, "he is the cruelest mass murderer of all time" becuase of the tragedy that has befallen the earth.

Who hasn't thought their children believe them to be just that after dolling out a punishment...I'm sure after a pop on the butt my son has, inside, said he's hated me, just as I did when my Dad did the same. But as we mature and grow, we understand our childish ways, our parents punishments, and look back with better clarity and understanding."

i think i have a better analogy. god is the parent who refuses to pull their child out of the way of a car with the logic of "well, i garentee you he won't do it again, and neither will his brothers." he is also the parent who does not call the police when they can hear their daughter being raped with the logic of "well, that'll teach her to walk home in the dark". he is also the kind of parent who drowns all of his children with the logic of "well, they didnt listen to me. this will show them".

how can you love a man like that? are you willing to do anything to get into heaven?

"god gives man free will, and using my free will I choose not to believe as there is not enough evidence for me and god sends me to hell right? well if god gives us the greatest gift and then punishes us for using it...he seems like a petty and shallow god. If you're right then i'll happily spend eternity down below with the angel responsible for giving mankind intelligence"

my god you are a genus! i'm the same as current resident, i have been trying to say this! if you dont mind i think i will quote you!

Excellent! Common sense prevails!

Nobody dies once they leave this world, God created us to be eternal beings - the question is where do you want to spend your eternity? With God or without Him? I choose with!

if only that were the question. if there actually was a choice there, i know we would all go with god, but there is no choice. the sad fact is that there is no god, and anyone who believes there is is just telling themselves what they want to hear

You must be special!

You getting well had nothing to do with the Doctors, medicine and just dumb luck.

Why did you even bother going to a doctor?

If god chose to save you why did he make you sick in the first place?

Tell that to the little boy found dead in a suitcase beacause mommy and her friends couldn't pray him back to life.

You getting well had nothing to do with the Doctors, medicine and just dumb luck.

Makes no sense.

Do you mean "...had everything to do with..."?

No. Perhaps it should have had an "If" in front of that sentence.

If this were always the case, then good people would live and not so good people would die. It would be very cut and dry and would be testable. This data does not exist. There has been no evidence that praying helps the sick. There is however evidence that it can harm them.

Does GOD have anything to do with it? How could I even begin to say what a being like God is thinking? Of that I have no idea. I believe faith ALONE can help a sick person but so can a good attitude, laughter and general positive thinking.

There exists no proof. That's the simplest answer.

Bingo!!

Congratulations, modern science cured your cancer. Other 14 year olds that also prayed died, so why did god not answer their prayers?

Believers are amazingly illogical. If you pray for a sick person and they live, then god answered your prayer, therefore god exists. If you pray for a sick person and they die, then god has chosen a different path, or it's a test or whatever, and therefore god exists.

Believers, just admit that there is NO CIRCUMSTANCE or possible outcome of any situation in which you might say "damn, I guess god doesn't exist". There isn't one. You're so blind that it will either be a miracle, or some kind of test, or a "plan" or something.

bull@!$%#. i am so tired of hearing you people and your so calles "proof" of god. you think that you know adversity or your wise or whatever cuz of some stupid medical condition, and just because you were medically cured, there is a god. ive got news for u. there is no god. there isnt a tooth fairy either, and it wasnt santa that put the presents under the tree. it was your parents. GOD DOES NOT ANSWER YOUR PRAYERS! if he did then we wouldnt have starving kids in africa, millions of rapes or beatings or murders or etc everyday and i am getting tired of saying this. you dont realize how many people are as stupid and ignorant as you are. im not giving you any sympathy cuz of ur cancer ir ur gonna call me rude or offensive. now get out of ur egocentric world where u think god thinks ur so damn special that he would alter the laws of physics to save ur life

You tell me. I get soooooo upset because people use incorrect grammar constantly. "GRRRRRRR".

You know, they say that one in two people make up half of the population.

"You know, they say that one in two people make up half of the population."

LOL

I am still waiting for their explanation of earthquakes since science is not a 'fact'.

Plate tectonic can't be the reason as the earth has never changed.

TrueBlueAmerican, excellent analysis of the fundies but you're mistaken: they think the earth is a few THOUSAND years old, not hundred thousand! I generally hear six-ten thousand. By way of reference, ten thousand years ago would be about when agriculture was beginning in the Middle East. Also the dog was domesticated about twelve thousand years ago. The Sumerians had WRITING over five thousand years ago. In other words, completely and totally moronic.

"I am still waiting for their explanation of earthquakes since science is not a 'fact'.

Plate tectonic can't be the reason as the earth has never changed."

wow. you are an idiot. like seriosly, get help. in 3rd grade, we learn about plate techtonics and how the earth DOES move (all the continents used to be one a few hundred million years ago). this is a great example of someone being unable to understand something simple because they are just plain stupid, and using the quickest explanation available, god.

and btw, science IS in fact, a fact. idiot.

ok my brother said you were being sarcastic. were you?

You don't "KNOW" anything. This is just your BELIEF.

2 doctors, can be just as misinformed as 1; in fact it is very likely. Because I doubt they blind to the other's diagnosis.

Medical science is not a perfect science. Misdiagnosis and medical mistakes happen constantly. When God cures an amputated limb from one of our brave soldiers fighting (arguably for him) in Iraq; then I'll call that a miracle. As long as he cures ambiguous ailments, and things than can otherwise be attributed to bad diagnosis, poor imaging (xrays), etc; then it is conjecture and NO MIRACLE.

He/she can also start by stopping the most evil people who commit horrific crimes and hiding as men of god (Osama, Priests, Terrorist). If he won't stop that, why would he cure your father? It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

I am nowhere near as great a person as a benevolent GOD would have to be, but if it was ever within my power to stop a child from being raped or murdered by someone pretending to be a man of god (or anyone for that matter), I would STOP IT. I would even risk my life to stop it. And so would most of humanity. Cops, firemen, soldiers do it every day. They are not gods. God isn't even as good as these people if he chooses to let these things happen, but fixes other trivial things in your life. That's absurd. What a bastard he/she must be, your God.

Yeah, yeah, I know...free will; mysterious ways, part of his plan.
It's a seriously f***d up plan that has your father cured, but lets' 10,000 people in China die in an earthquake, or 250,000 people die in a tsunami. Your father at least lived long enough to have children. Why is his health more important than preventing a child from being raped.
No "plan" like this will ever make sense to rational people.

Your god is a bastard.

Heh, and tell me what you think created the universe? Just poofed into existence? There was blank space.... and in one nanosecond or some lower measurement of time you could just hear a poof and the universe appeared? Woah, sounds very true.

Harley3k, you sound like a bitter person, I hope that I am wrong. Why doesn't God save or heal all? Because, Hebrews 11:6 says "without faith it is impossible to please God, he that comes to God must believe that he is and is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." God determines the way of humanity, not man, it is God's way or your own way.......your choice. We all will suffer in life because it rains on the just and the unjust, but I would rather go through suffering and have God as my support system then to go through suffering with out him. Some things are very hard to bear in life I wish you well in your future endevors and hope one day it will include the love of God.

To Harley Three Thousand:

By saying "Your god is a bastard", I would certainly agree with that statement, humanly speaking, because God/Jesus was not born with the help of a human male, thereby rendering Him in the English language a bastard.

You probably disagree with that (Christianity, I gather), and that is fine. You can ponder that one while I ponder how people could gloss over facts like Irreducible Complexity or the hypocrisy within Freudian Psychoanalytics. But at least I will study those things out instead of making cliche blanket statements under the cloak of psuedo-philosophical/scientific "knowledge".

"...for a man's well-being, Faith is properly the one thing needful; how, with it, Martyrs, otherwise weak, can cheerfully endure the shame, and the cross: and without it, to worldlings puke-up their sick existence, by suicide, in the midst of luxury."- Thomas Carlyle, Sartor Resartus

The Bible. Check it out.

Why do people who lack faith turn their anger at God when a natural disaster or other tragedy happens?

So I guess they do believe; believe in hating God.

Whether or not one believes is personal; but unbridled hatred is a tremendous waste of energy.

Seems something so simple is so hard for some to understand but here it goes: you cannot hate something that does not exist. If someone does not believe a god exist then they cannot hate god. See, simple.

Why do people who lack faith turn their anger at God when a natural disaster or other tragedy happens?

In a word... ignorance.

wow, after reading your comment, i really have to say. you are an extremely arrogant @!$%#. you think god would seriously step in for your dad, and set aside the millions of starving kids in Africa, the innocent civilians that were murdered/raped/beaten/kidnapped that day, the natural disasters and accidents leaving thousands dead? if you seriously believe that you or your dad are so special that the ruler of the universe himself would step in to save him, then you are a sick bastard. if there is a god, you better pray your ass off that he doesn't damn you to hell for your sins.

i'm sorry if i was too harsh on this comment

ok who are you talking to?

(sigh) again, im sorry if i was harsh on my earlier comment, but i am repeatedly frustrated by so called "beleivers" saying that without god, your life is worthless. i know that wasnt exactly what you said, but u implied it. i have heard it a million times, and i have also heard a million times that atheists are the ones who do judge people by their beleifs (which is extremely stupid because that in itself is judging by someones beleif) this just pisses me off when i hear this. i never judge people on their beleifs, if i did, i would have to hate nearly everyone i knew. i hope your views do change in the near future, and i hope you will not go to your grave beleiving that anyone who doesnt agree with you is worthless. i know that i am a good person, and i know i live a full lilfe, and i wont listen to you if you say my life is based on my beleifs.

demmywemmy, people who hate god almost never actually believe in him. what they mean is that if god existed, he would be the devil. which i would agree with 100% if i actually hated the devil for trying to save aberham's son. just wanted to clear that up.

"Heh, and tell me what you think created the universe? Just poofed into existence? There was blank space.... and in one nanosecond or some lower measurement of time you could just hear a poof and the universe appeared? Woah, sounds very true."

wait... you chose to follow a giant man in the sky that just so HAPPENS to be invisible who manipulates things that coincidentally HAPPEN to look exactly like normal events and he will get you into heaven but there HAPPENS to be absolutely no proof because you just go to heaven when your body is destroyed and the good people who die are "part of his mysterious plan"?

wow. your right. i am SUCH an idiot for not realizing that you were right earlier. im sorry.

Heh, and tell me what you think created god? Just poofed into existence? There was blank space.... and in one nanosecond or some lower measurement of time you could just hear a poof and god appeared? Woah, sounds very true.

i dont know what made the universe. we may never know, since it all comes down to the chicken and the egg. what made the thing that made the universe? but i will never believe in something ridiculous just so i can say "well i know what made the universe, a random man in the sky. oh, but dont look, you just can't see him. but hes there. i know he is. i have faith."

"Why doesn't God save or heal all? Because, Hebrews 11:6 says "without faith it is impossible to please God, he that comes to God must believe that he is and is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.""

yes, of course, geneus. they werent praying enough, and they were therefore evil, and had to be killed.

Harley, YOU have the best reply here. It makes no sense whatsoever that "God" would heal little ole me of a cancer, whilst 250,000 perish in a tsunami; thousands upon thousands are swallowed up by an earthquake, or millions of pure and innocent children die of starvation on this planet.

Arrogant, specious, and ridiculous thinking.

Yes, and why won't god heal an amputee? Anyone ever saw a arm or leg regrow? ummm...

Seems like if one believes in the power of prayer, they'd be able to gather a few thousand people together and pray for limbs to be restored.

There's a great site called: whywontgodhealamputees.com that attempts to answer the great question.

Ginny F, "why wouldn't he heal an amputee" why don't you ask him.......are you scared to???

You know, it's kinda odd too. In the bible he's bringing people back to life, changing water into wine, and making great use out of bread, fish and water. But now-a-days, not so much.

Harley3k,

You make a good point. however the fighting in Iraq is not a "GOOD FIGHT" when Nations attack other Nations based on lies there can be no good only tragedy. and those young maimed soldiers would be alive and at home if rational minds had prevailed.

With tens of thousands of soldiers fighting the good fight in Iraq and coming back maimed for life; why can't god give them their limbs back?

Interestingly science is studying this possibility. Regrowth of certain missing body parts (e.g. a finger) is closer than I had thought.

You know, it's kinda odd too. In the bible he's bringing people back to life, changing water into wine, and making great use out of bread, fish and water. But now-a-days, not so much.

Much of the bible is allegorical, even the NT. But again, it merely comes down to faith- either you believe or you don't. If people who believe are all idiots, then they are "idiots" who are faithful.

I do believe that religion is an opiate; having faith and belief in a Creator is not.

To JustinPM I would have to say that maybe you're looking in the wrong places. I have seen with my own eyes some miraculous healings. If you look among those full of doubt and unbelief you will find little evidence. If you search among those whose faith is strong and unwavering you will see and experience many miracles. I know over 20 people who saw God miraculously multiply bags of groceries being handed out to the poor whith some left over when the line of people had been satisfied. I have even seen people healed when I prayed for them, because I believe that all things are possible with God! Even Jesus had to throw the doubters out of the room when he raised a little girl back to life. Look for people filled with joy and peace and compassion and that is where you will find God moving.

Ginny F, "why wouldn't he heal an amputee" why don't you ask him.......are you scared to???

Lucy, That question is for BELIEVERS . I do not believe there is any god to ask the question. One can't go around talking to a non existant entity. Oh wait......the believers do.

And you're just being silly with the "are you scared too?". That is like a schoolyard bully going around "neh neh neh neh neh....you're just skeered. you not so smart like me" blah blah blah

I asked god cuz I wasn't scared, and still he has yet to contact me back.No voice mail, no snail mail, maybe he emailed me... nope. Not even a dream or hallucination.

Harley3k, I applaud you for your post. It is refreshing to see that someone is making a viable argument here. People on this page claim that miracles happen to them but those miracles almost always involve some type of medical condition or how they survived some horrific accident. As far as I'm concerned, none of these things are really "miracles", they are just people getting lucky or finding strength within themselves or loved ones to overcome diseases. Miracles occur often in the bible because in those times it was easy to misinform uneducated people and make them think whatever you wanted. These days, information technology has made the types of "miracles" seen in the bible impossible.

A bit of humor for you: Think of Monty Python's The Meaning of Life, when the general says, "That is why we'll always need an army and may God strike me down were it to be otherwise." And then god's hand comes down out of the clouds and vaporizes him. Now that is what it would take for me to believe, nothing shy of the hand of god himself, or herself, or whatever.

Stormrider, so you are saying that over 20 people watched bags of groceries appear out of thin air before their very eyes? Very impressive, nothing like that has ever hit the news. Why isn't the media reporting on such clear proof that a divine being exists? Perhaps the place handing out grocery bags simply had enough from donations or money to purchase the proper amount of food for the 20 people? Or maybe god forced an unusual amount of people to donate and be generous when they wouldn't have been; that's the only way a miracle of god would happen in this case, if god manipulated people into doing something against their will when we are supposedly given free will.

Ha ha. Nice argument.

Silly, silly. All this arguing will "prove" nothing. Non-believers think believers are stupid. Believers think non-believers are arrogant...and in fact, if you read the comments, the ones from most of the non-believers do tend to be arrogant. The point is humans will never prove or disprove the existance of God. Belief is a matter of faith. Believers are not stupid. Poring through the Bible and truly studying it is not for the stupid or feeble-minded. Say what you will about it being irrevalent, or revised. You have to read it to know it; you cannot rely on the comments of others, for or against. It is a complex history of humanity and a fascinating study of people and their dealings with God. I choose to believe, and it is my business why I do. I believe that God is of all the forces of nature, all the evolution, all the splendid workings of mind, body, soul, earth and heaven. The science IS the miracle.

I'll tell you why "non-believers are arrogant." Because you believers always say the same things:

* "You've got to believe!" No, I don't. I've got to have evidence. An amputee regrowing a limb would be a good start.

* "Read the Bible, it's the Word Of God." I've read the Bible several times. It tells me that pi equals three, that having your virgin daughters gang-raped is better than letting a mob attack a couple of angels who are more than capable of defending themselves, and that your god is a sadist with the emotional maturity of a spoiled five year old. And that's just the Old Testament.

* "If you don't believe, you're going to Hell." As I said, your god is a sadist. Incidentally, if there is a god and I meet him in the afterlife, he and I are going to have a long discussion about why he's such an egotistical jerk And I won't let him give me the Job brushoff ("Where wast thou when I was doing this, that and t'other?").

* "Atheists can't have morals because they don't believe in god's punishment." This is not only a stupid argument, it's even bad religion. A small child doesn't steal from the cookie jar because he knows if he gets caught then mommy will smack his bottom. A mature adult is moral because it's the right thing to be. A believer shouldn't be moral just because sins will send him to Hell. He should be moral because that's what god wants. I don't believe in god but I do believe in the Golden Rule. That, along with some other things, is a perfectly good basis for ethics and morality.

When discussing God with believers, they always use the same arguments, one of which isn't even an argument, but a threat. After hearing the same arguments over and over for year after year, we get tired of it all. You folks never have new arguments and the old ones are easy to refute. "There is no new thing under the sun." Ecc 1:9

...And may I add that quoting the Bible, specially in King James(old language) does not help! That does not mean anything to unbelievers, and it turns them off. It does not make it somehow more powerful, as some of Christians believe. To say what the Scriptures say is just that much Word of God as putting it in Quotation marks, but it doesn't come as mechanical repetition to them. One must present the living faith, the kind that is able to touch the innermost part of man's being( Good example is in Acts where Paul REASONED with them..), and only the Holy Spirit can make this possible....

The reason we all resisted the truth to some point in our lives, is because our deeds are evil and we don't want to be exposed to the light. You can bring up any other religion without any resistance, but if you bring up Jesus, everyone gets their underwear in a knot. He brings to light all things and we can see ourselves for who we really are. When we resist and make up excuses for not believing, we are trying to justify our way of life and reason in our hearts as to why we don't have to change.

Well said clo. As far as the amputee thing goes, I don't think God is as worried about our bodies as we are. It's the soul that is important. Jeses never claimed to be in the body saving business.

BigTex,
I don't have my bible with me at this time, but I believe it is 3John, were John say, Beloved, I wish above all things that you will prosper, even as your soul prospers." He does want us to prosper, meaning spirit, soul and body, but in proportion to how we are doing in spiritual matters. Jesus said, "seek His kingdom first and all His righteousness and all that you need will be added to you" He did not promise that He will always heal. There were places were He could not heal, because of their unbelief. That said, there are cases where God has worked incredible miracles through His servants. If interested I can hook you up with some examples.

I wasn't directing the amputee thing at you, clo, but at these other guys who commented before us. These are the type people who have to see to believe. Unfortunately there are no photos or video from Jesus' day, but people saw him alive, people saw him crucified, and people saw and heard his word days after his ressurection. Believe that.

Jesus said, "even if you see somebody raise from the dead, there would still be some that would not believe."

3 John 1:2

Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers. (NASB)

...but people saw him alive, people saw him crucified, and people saw and heard his word days after his ressurection. Believe that.

There are people who brag about how they've been abducted by space aliens and been anally probed. People saw Mohammad riding a flying horse. Snorri Sturluson describes in great detail how Gylfi, a King of Sweden, met Odin. There's a first-hand description of Buddha giving his first sermon in the Deer Park, thus setting in motion the Wheel of Dharma.

As I said before, I'll believe when you provide evidence. Jesus is mentioned in one book and one book only. Josephus may have mentioned him in Antiquities of the Jews, however Eusebius of Caesarea may have fabricated the Testimonium around 300 AD.

So between the Bible and Sturluson's Prose Edda, there's equally good evidence for Jesus and Odin. There's actually better evidence for the existence of Buddha.

I don't claim to know it all, but as I mature spiritually I'm thinking most religions are praying to the same God. Call him Buddah, Allah, whatever, he comes to different people in different ways, and there are extremists in every circle you care to explore. I think man has added/taken away things from the bible throughout history. I don't know which things in particular, but I believe it is mostly intact. When believers talk of going to hell forever, I get turned off to their message. That might scare children into believing in Jesus, but it doesn't do God's work in my opinion. When you read "forever and ever" in the Bible, that is not a direct translation from the origional writings, which were "anon" or "aeon", which is a finite amount of time. Let's pretend it's a thousand years. If I went to hell for aenos "plural" and aeons , I would at least be there four thousand years, but not "forever". What I'm about to tell you usually makes christians look at me like I just stepped off a spaceship, but I couldn't tell you with any certainty that Adolf Hitler is in hell. I do not know that. I do not know his relationship with God. Anyone who claims to know is a liar. What I do know is that God's love is too many times underestimated by the "religious". I do know that Jesus died for ALL our sins, that means all of us, and every sin everyone has/will commit. Folks who have had near death experiences have seen some interesting things. Check it out if you're interested. Some of the stories may be made up, but I find it hard to believe all of them are. I've gone on too long, but I'm open to talk about/debate anything anytime. We have different beliefs, but that does not make any of us idiots. Yes, JoJo, you and the other non-believers may be right, I may be wrong, but I'll take my chances. God bless.

"The reason we all resisted the truth to some point in our lives, is because our deeds are evil and we don't want to be exposed to the light. You can bring up any other religion without any resistance, but if you bring up Jesus, everyone gets their underwear in a knot. He brings to light all things and we can see ourselves for who we really are. When we resist and make up excuses for not believing, we are trying to justify our way of life and reason in our hearts as to why we don't have to change."

oh my god. thats just... words cannot describe just how ignorrent, arrogent, and just downright stupid that is. ok, pointing out all the reasons why this is wrong will be hard, because theres just so many, but here it goes.

ironically, you are right when you say that people resist the truth to some point in their lives. people are taught religion from the beginning and resist the truth that there is no god. and who wouldnt want to be exposed to the "light"? i didnt say i didnt love jesus or that i wouldnt like the idea of a god who could help me. i just dont believe that jesus was the son of god and that there is a god. i really do wish that god was real, but i know not only in my heart but in my brain as well that he isnt. and were you making a joke when you said "You can bring up any other religion without any resistance, but if you bring up Jesus, everyone gets their underwear in a knot", because no ones laughing. cristianity is EXACTLY the same as other religions when you insult it. and no one makes "excuses" for not believing. like i said before, i really wish god was real, but he is not. really, you make excuses for your self delusion, i mean religion.

Hey at least you have a wide choice of doctors to choose from if your not satisfied, wait, you also have a wide variety of gods to choose from.

BRAVO!! AUTHOR AUTHOR!!

What I am truly saddened by, if this study is to be believed, is that half of americans are this dense. I know that there has been a major 'dumbing down' of america, but this is ridiculous.

Really, and what is your escape? Alcohol, drugs, sex?? God trumps anything that you can come up with period.

Lucy...come on; please. You're just stuck in that silly "you ain't nuthin' without God" drivel all believers are indoctrinated with since they were born. You are inundated with preachers and fellow believers telling you that people who don't believe are sad, lost, miserable, alcoholics and drug addicts, etc. I'm not so young. I see the exact opposite.

THINKING is a wonderful thing. EDUCATION is a wonderful thing. TRY IT.

Parents whose kids have had some tragedy often say thank god, it was a miracle, god was with him/her, we get through it with our prayers. Yet, their other kid died a tragic death but hey, the other one was healed by the hand of god.

GinnyF@10:04am, I am well educated and do think as you say. But I see you as a very negative person. Because your tone is so critical.

It is not a sin for believers to drink alcohol, but it is a sin to be a "drunkard" and it is not a sin to take medication, but it is a sin to be addicted to drugs.

Your lack of happiness still exist whether you believe it or not, it is evident in the tone of your post. You show intolerance, in patience, lack of sincerity for the right of others to believes as they chose, and finally happiness comes from within, not in external things.

If we look to others and things to make us happy we will always be disappointed. We make ourselves happy.

Lucy said:

"GinnyF@10:04am, I am well educated and do think as you say. But I see you as a very negative person. Because your tone is so critical.

It is not a sin for believers to drink alcohol, but it is a sin to be a "drunkard" and it is not a sin to take medication, but it is a sin to be addicted to drugs.

Your lack of happiness still exist whether you believe it or not, it is evident in the tone of your post. You show intolerance, in patience, lack of sincerity for the right of others to believes as they chose, and finally happiness comes from within, not in external things"

Wow. Such arrogance. This CONSTANT "you're not happy because you don't believe" crap is tiring and pathetic.

Unfortunately, believers HAVE to believe all that nonsense because they are indoctrinated to believe that if they STOP believing they will not be happy, they will become a drunkard, they will go to a very warm place when they die, etc. It's embedded in the mind from an early age and it's hard for a lot of them to let go of their brainwashing. Yes, it *is* brainwashing.

I'm sure my post will also be seen as "negative" and therefore I'm not happy, and therefore god exists. Or some similar convoluted "logic". In order to preempt that I'd like to congratulate the poster that let his irrational belief go, and would like to congratulation and praise his freedom from prescription medication.

The world and universe is an amazing and beautiful place and we don't need god in order to enjoy it. We're lucky bastards and we should make the most of it during our short lives.

"Really, and what is your escape? Alcohol, drugs, sex?? God trumps anything that you can come up with period."

lucy, i beg to differ. i can think of a TON of things that are better than wasting my time telling a twisted mass murdering terrorist how much i love him for what hes done. these things include

love
listening to beautiful music
creating my own music
friendship
laughter
relationships
nature
and all the other wonderful things that this world (not god) has given us. it doesn't take anything divine to help me live a happy life and help my fellow people. and dont tell me god made me happy, i did it myself. my parents and i have helped to build my life, and god had no part in any of it. i dont need his help, i can pick myself up. when i stopped being religious, i really started becoming my own person. i started thinking for myself and stopped just listening to what everyone else told me. i enjoy standing out, and one of my favorite things about my religion is that it makes me so different.

i cant tell you how much happier i have become when i dropped the christian faith that my parents told me. everyone who ever hears about my atheism trys to tell me how im an idiot, that im going to go to hell, and asks me what created the universe, but i dont need them to agree with me to know that i am right. its the price i pay for being different.

man though lucy, i just wish you could see what its like not looking over your shoulder and making sure you follow gods exact word. and dont say the same thing to me, because i do know what it is like to be a christian, and trust me not one part of it did i enjoy. i did however feel scared all the time because i thought god would hurt me because of my sins. now i am free as a bird!

i hope you see the truth before you waste this life preparing for the next one!
have a good life

absolutely genius! wonder what her response will be.... she'll probably just say "well, i dont care what you have to say. ur still going to hell. im always right, and anyone who doesnt agree with me is always wrong." i dont have anything wrong with christians, if you believe in god, thats good for you. but people like lucy who repeatedly tell me i am going to hell, i am a bad person because of my beleifs, i am arrogant, i force my religion on you, etc. any christians who are reading this, you have to admit people like that are an embarrasment to your religion.

God must hate the bible belt!

Naw. Just trailer parks!

Yes, he does. He hates pretty much everyone in Africa and Bangladesh. He only loves Evangelical Christians, and Republicans.

Pray for yourself to wise up.

lol

Well said, Harley3k, that's for sure :). It's a darn shame more people in this country don't look at it the same way. People feel the selfish need to believe there is someone looking over them, protecting them and controlling their lives. We're taught this rubbish from childhood in an effort to keep us in the fold and have us bring more people into our specific sect, but those of us smart enough and strong enough mentally are able to see through it and realize that we have to actually be responsible for our own lives since there isn't some invisible man controlling it for us.

My big thing, if all of the Christians in this country are so "god fearing", why do a large portion of you live so immorally? Why do you all still allow money to control your lives? Why do we always see men of god on TV after being charged with raping a young child? Obviously in the back of your minds you do not really believe there is a god until you have a problem and need help.

the cold, hard truth. bravo harvey, bravo. ive never agreed with another atheist more.